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Dirk Diggler
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OT: United States - a welfare state... - 02-14-2007, 05:15 PM

And I thought that Bush was cutting spending to the poor and all these
welfare people were starving. Seems like a bunch of hooey... We're
spending more on the poor and unfortunate that ever before. And poverty
continues to rise. But liberals like to throw money at problems that they
know will never be solved - keeps their voter base up...


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...021301091.html

Welfare State Stasis

By Robert J. Samuelson
Wednesday, February 14, 2007; A19



Spend a moment studying the adjacent table. It illuminates why another of
our annual budget battles -- begun last week, when President Bush submitted
his fiscal 2008 proposal -- seems so fruitless and (yes) repetitious. Every
year we hear complaints about accounting gimmicks and unrealistic
assumptions. There's a ferocious crossfire of charges and countercharges.
Hardly anything ever gets resolved. Budgets almost always remain in deficit
(41 out of 47 years since 1960).

The table shows the rise of the American welfare state. In 1956, defense
dominated the budget; the Cold War buildup was in full swing. The welfare
state, which is what "payments to individuals" signifies, was modest. Now
everything is reversed. Despite the war in Iraq, defense spending is only a
fifth of the budget; so-called entitlement payments to individuals are
almost 60 percent -- and rising. In fiscal 2006, the federal government
spent almost $2.7 trillion. Social Security ($544 billion), Medicare ($374
billion) and Medicaid ($181 billion) dominated. There was $199 billion more
for payments to the poor, including the earned-income tax credit and food
stamps.

Almost no one wants to slash these programs. They have huge constituencies;
they're popular. Paradoxically, their invulnerability and size also protect
much of the rest of the budget. Look again at the table. After payments to
individuals, defense spending and interest on the debt (which must be paid),
only about a seventh of the budget remains. Many of these remaining programs
are widely supported. Does anyone really want to end the National Institutes
of Health at $28 billion? Or how about the $41 billion we spend to support
federal courts, prosecutors and police (the FBI, DEA, Border Patrol)?

Of course, some programs are wasteful, ineffective or outmoded. My favorite
example is Amtrak, which serves a tiny number of passengers, is concentrated
in the Northeast and costs $1.3 billion annually. But politically, ending
such programs is hardly worth the trouble. The bad publicity of antagonizing
aggrieved advocates -- here, railroad buffs and maybe environmentalists --
is too high for the small savings. In a nearly $3 trillion budget, even 10
Amtraks are a footnote.

The welfare state has made budgeting an exercise in futility. Both liberals
and conservatives, in their own ways, peddle phony solutions. Cut waste, say
conservatives. Well, network news reports of $20 million federal programs
that don't work may seem -- and be -- scandalous, but like Amtrak they're
usually mere blips in the total budget. For its 2008 budget, the Bush
administration brags it would end or sharply reduce 141 programs. But most
are microscopic; total savings would be $12 billion, or 0.4 percent of
spending. Worse, Congress has previously rejected some of these cuts.

Liberals have their own cures. Cut defense, some say. Okay. In 2006,
military spending (including the war in Iraq) totaled $520 billion, slightly
less than Social Security. If it had been halved, the savings would have
just covered the deficit ($248 billion). Little would be left for new
programs. Raise taxes on the richest 1 percent, say some. Okay. The richest
1 percent pay about a quarter of all federal taxes. In 2006, that was about
$600 billion. To cover the deficit would require about a 40 percent tax
increase. Needless to say, neither proposal is politically plausible.

Annual budget debates are sterile -- long on rhetoric, short on action --
because each side blames the other for a situation that neither chooses to
change. To cut spending significantly, conservatives would have to go after
popular welfare programs, including Social Security and Medicare. To raise
taxes significantly, liberals would have to go after the upper middle class,
a constituency they covet (two-thirds of all federal taxes come from the
richest fifth). Deficits persist, because neither side risks its popularity,
and, indeed, both sides pursue popularity with new spending programs and tax
breaks.

It might help if Americans called welfare programs -- current benefits for
select populations, paid for by current taxes -- by their proper name,
rather than by the soothing (and misleading) labels of "entitlements" and
"social insurance." That way, we might ask ourselves who deserves welfare
and why.

We could consider all of federal spending and not just small bits of it. But
most Americans don't want to admit that they are current or prospective
welfare recipients. They prefer to think that they automatically deserve
whatever they've been promised simply because the promises were made.
Americans do not want to pose the basic questions, and their political
leaders mirror that reluctance. This makes the welfare state immovable and
the budget situation intractable.






DD


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joemono
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Re: OT: United States - a welfare state... - 02-14-2007, 06:36 PM

Dirk Diggler wrote:
> But liberals like to throw money at problems that they
> know will never be solved...


Well, at least that's better than throwing money AND soldiers at a
problem...


joemono
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Zeke
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Re: United States - a welfare state... - 02-14-2007, 07:48 PM

"Dirk Diggler" <dirk@dirk.org> wrote:
> But liberals like to throw money at problems that they know will never be
> solved - keeps their voter base up...


liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals
liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals
liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals
liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals
liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals
liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals
liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals
liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals
liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals
liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals
liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals
liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals
liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals
liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals
liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals
liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals
liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals
liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals
liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals
liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals
liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals
liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals
liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals
liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals
liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals
liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals
liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals
liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals
liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals
liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals
liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals!

=======================================
I walk this road with a hammer and a fiery lantern
With this hand I build, and with this I burn
Bruce Springsteen




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DBCoop
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Re: OT: United States - a welfare state... - 02-14-2007, 09:36 PM

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:12:40 -0500, "Dirk Diggler" <dirk@dirk.org>
wrote:

>And I thought that Bush was cutting spending to the poor and all these
>welfare people were starving. Seems like a bunch of hooey... We're
>spending more on the poor and unfortunate that ever before. And poverty
>continues to rise. But liberals like to throw money at problems that they
>know will never be solved - keeps their voter base up...
>
>
>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...021301091.html
>



The article and your post have very little in common. You talk about
food stamps and welfare/poverty while this article talks about all
entitlement programs including social security.

Of course more money today goes to social security than during the
cold war--there are more retired people today. Duh.
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Calvin Jones & the 13th Apostle
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Re: OT: United States - a welfare state... - 02-14-2007, 10:57 PM

Dirk,
You are right. Corporate welfare is a big deal.





"Dirk Diggler" <dirk@dirk.org> wrote in message
news:12t6k8rkirj3g60@corp.supernews.com...
> And I thought that Bush was cutting spending to the poor and all these
> welfare people were starving. Seems like a bunch of hooey... We're
> spending more on the poor and unfortunate that ever before. And poverty
> continues to rise. But liberals like to throw money at problems that they
> know will never be solved - keeps their voter base up...
>
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...021301091.html
>
> Welfare State Stasis
>
> By Robert J. Samuelson
> Wednesday, February 14, 2007; A19
>
>
>
> Spend a moment studying the adjacent table. It illuminates why another of
> our annual budget battles -- begun last week, when President Bush
> submitted his fiscal 2008 proposal -- seems so fruitless and (yes)
> repetitious. Every year we hear complaints about accounting gimmicks and
> unrealistic assumptions. There's a ferocious crossfire of charges and
> countercharges. Hardly anything ever gets resolved. Budgets almost always
> remain in deficit (41 out of 47 years since 1960).
>
> The table shows the rise of the American welfare state. In 1956, defense
> dominated the budget; the Cold War buildup was in full swing. The welfare
> state, which is what "payments to individuals" signifies, was modest. Now
> everything is reversed. Despite the war in Iraq, defense spending is only
> a fifth of the budget; so-called entitlement payments to individuals are
> almost 60 percent -- and rising. In fiscal 2006, the federal government
> spent almost $2.7 trillion. Social Security ($544 billion), Medicare ($374
> billion) and Medicaid ($181 billion) dominated. There was $199 billion
> more for payments to the poor, including the earned-income tax credit and
> food stamps.
>
> Almost no one wants to slash these programs. They have huge
> constituencies; they're popular. Paradoxically, their invulnerability and
> size also protect much of the rest of the budget. Look again at the table.
> After payments to individuals, defense spending and interest on the debt
> (which must be paid), only about a seventh of the budget remains. Many of
> these remaining programs are widely supported. Does anyone really want to
> end the National Institutes of Health at $28 billion? Or how about the $41
> billion we spend to support federal courts, prosecutors and police (the
> FBI, DEA, Border Patrol)?
>
> Of course, some programs are wasteful, ineffective or outmoded. My
> favorite example is Amtrak, which serves a tiny number of passengers, is
> concentrated in the Northeast and costs $1.3 billion annually. But
> politically, ending such programs is hardly worth the trouble. The bad
> publicity of antagonizing aggrieved advocates -- here, railroad buffs and
> maybe environmentalists -- is too high for the small savings. In a nearly
> $3 trillion budget, even 10 Amtraks are a footnote.
>
> The welfare state has made budgeting an exercise in futility. Both
> liberals and conservatives, in their own ways, peddle phony solutions. Cut
> waste, say conservatives. Well, network news reports of $20 million
> federal programs that don't work may seem -- and be -- scandalous, but
> like Amtrak they're usually mere blips in the total budget. For its 2008
> budget, the Bush administration brags it would end or sharply reduce 141
> programs. But most are microscopic; total savings would be $12 billion, or
> 0.4 percent of spending. Worse, Congress has previously rejected some of
> these cuts.
>
> Liberals have their own cures. Cut defense, some say. Okay. In 2006,
> military spending (including the war in Iraq) totaled $520 billion,
> slightly less than Social Security. If it had been halved, the savings
> would have just covered the deficit ($248 billion). Little would be left
> for new programs. Raise taxes on the richest 1 percent, say some. Okay.
> The richest 1 percent pay about a quarter of all federal taxes. In 2006,
> that was about $600 billion. To cover the deficit would require about a 40
> percent tax increase. Needless to say, neither proposal is politically
> plausible.
>
> Annual budget debates are sterile -- long on rhetoric, short on action --
> because each side blames the other for a situation that neither chooses to
> change. To cut spending significantly, conservatives would have to go
> after popular welfare programs, including Social Security and Medicare. To
> raise taxes significantly, liberals would have to go after the upper
> middle class, a constituency they covet (two-thirds of all federal taxes
> come from the richest fifth). Deficits persist, because neither side risks
> its popularity, and, indeed, both sides pursue popularity with new
> spending programs and tax breaks.
>
> It might help if Americans called welfare programs -- current benefits for
> select populations, paid for by current taxes -- by their proper name,
> rather than by the soothing (and misleading) labels of "entitlements" and
> "social insurance." That way, we might ask ourselves who deserves welfare
> and why.
>
> We could consider all of federal spending and not just small bits of it.
> But most Americans don't want to admit that they are current or
> prospective welfare recipients. They prefer to think that they
> automatically deserve whatever they've been promised simply because the
> promises were made. Americans do not want to pose the basic questions, and
> their political leaders mirror that reluctance. This makes the welfare
> state immovable and the budget situation intractable.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> DD
>



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Chris
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Re: OT: United States - a welfare state... - 02-15-2007, 12:03 AM

Hate to say it. But I'm gonna give Diggler a nod for this one. The
reality is that the way we will go exists somewhere in between. The
article is correct in saying that Democrats like to increase funding
to government programs. Republicans like to decrease funding for many
government programs so they can increase funding for defense.
Democrats want to raise taxes on the middle and upper-middle class to
increase funding to government programs and pay down the national
debt. Republicans are currently doing the converse. I don't think
that anyone has proposed raising taxes for the wealthiest Americans by
40%. You can attempt to correct me if I am wrong. That's the problem
with everyone...we're all a bunch of money-grubbing whores because
money equals power, influence, and expanded opportunities in our
world. Money is a valuable commodity. And certain individuals don't
want to pay tax dollars to broken programs that help the poor when
certain individuals view the poor as a social liability.

A small-to-moderate increase in income tax for the wealthiest
Americans is probably in order. As is the elimination of government
waste in the form of useless programs. I don't consider Medicare/
Medicaid and Social Security to be welfare programs. On that point, I
disagree with the author. The only true WELFARE PROGRAM is the social
WELFARE PROGRAM. And while we all hear about individuals who suck off
this program like little leeches, there are also individuals who
better themselves and raise their families out of poverty with the
help of money from welfare. While welfare is sometimes a choice, it
isn't ALWAYS a choice.

Diggler, if you or I have a long protracted chronic illness that
requires one of us to be in a hospital for a long period of time prior
to your or my death, it benefits us greatly to use a program like
Medicaid. Healthcare is expensive and those costs continue to rise.
It is a wise decision to gift your assets to your progeny as you age
to decrease your total assets. This will come into play when
determining what kind of healthcare assistance and the quantity of
healthcare assistance you will qualify for at the time you need it.
You can't believe that your private health insurance will cover the
total costs of your hospital stay. And why leave that debt to be paid
by your estate when you have been paying into the Medicare/Medicaid
system since you began working for a living? It would be your right
to use that program. Why would you want it eliminated? Simply
because there are people in this country who abuse the system? What
about capping Medicare/Medicaid coverage based on how much an
individual pays into the system over their working lifetime? And only
making it available for use after a certain age, say 60 years old?
That encourages personal responsibility to maintain one's health and
also encourages individuals to purchase private health insurance to
cover their healthcare needs 100% prior to age 60 and supplementally
thereafter?

The elimination of social programs is not the right path.






On Feb 14, 12:12 pm, "Dirk Diggler" <d...@dirk.org> wrote:
> And I thought that Bush was cutting spending to the poor and all these
> welfare people were starving. Seems like a bunch of hooey... We're
> spending more on the poor and unfortunate that ever before. And poverty
> continues to rise. But liberals like to throw money at problems that they
> know will never be solved - keeps their voter base up...
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...07/02/13/AR200...
>
> Welfare State Stasis
>
> By Robert J. Samuelson
> Wednesday, February 14, 2007; A19
>
> Spend a moment studying the adjacent table. It illuminates why another of
> our annual budget battles -- begun last week, when President Bush submitted
> his fiscal 2008 proposal -- seems so fruitless and (yes) repetitious. Every
> year we hear complaints about accounting gimmicks and unrealistic
> assumptions. There's a ferocious crossfire of charges and countercharges.
> Hardly anything ever gets resolved. Budgets almost always remain in deficit
> (41 out of 47 years since 1960).
>
> The table shows the rise of the American welfare state. In 1956, defense
> dominated the budget; the Cold War buildup was in full swing. The welfare
> state, which is what "payments to individuals" signifies, was modest. Now
> everything is reversed. Despite the war in Iraq, defense spending is only a
> fifth of the budget; so-called entitlement payments to individuals are
> almost 60 percent -- and rising. In fiscal 2006, the federal government
> spent almost $2.7 trillion. Social Security ($544 billion), Medicare ($374
> billion) and Medicaid ($181 billion) dominated. There was $199 billion more
> for payments to the poor, including the earned-income tax credit and food
> stamps.
>
> Almost no one wants to slash these programs. They have huge constituencies;
> they're popular. Paradoxically, their invulnerability and size also protect
> much of the rest of the budget. Look again at the table. After payments to
> individuals, defense spending and interest on the debt (which must be paid),
> only about a seventh of the budget remains. Many of these remaining programs
> are widely supported. Does anyone really want to end the National Institutes
> of Health at $28 billion? Or how about the $41 billion we spend to support
> federal courts, prosecutors and police (the FBI, DEA, Border Patrol)?
>
> Of course, some programs are wasteful, ineffective or outmoded. My favorite
> example is Amtrak, which serves a tiny number of passengers, is concentrated
> in the Northeast and costs $1.3 billion annually. But politically, ending
> such programs is hardly worth the trouble. The bad publicity of antagonizing
> aggrieved advocates -- here, railroad buffs and maybe environmentalists --
> is too high for the small savings. In a nearly $3 trillion budget, even 10
> Amtraks are a footnote.
>
> The welfare state has made budgeting an exercise in futility. Both liberals
> and conservatives, in their own ways, peddle phony solutions. Cut waste, say
> conservatives. Well, network news reports of $20 million federal programs
> that don't work may seem -- and be -- scandalous, but like Amtrak they're
> usually mere blips in the total budget. For its 2008 budget, the Bush
> administration brags it would end or sharply reduce 141 programs. But most
> are microscopic; total savings would be $12 billion, or 0.4 percent of
> spending. Worse, Congress has previously rejected some of these cuts.
>
> Liberals have their own cures. Cut defense, some say. Okay. In 2006,
> military spending (including the war in Iraq) totaled $520 billion, slightly
> less than Social Security. If it had been halved, the savings would have
> just covered the deficit ($248 billion). Little would be left for new
> programs. Raise taxes on the richest 1 percent, say some. Okay. The richest
> 1 percent pay about a quarter of all federal taxes. In 2006, that was about
> $600 billion. To cover the deficit would require about a 40 percent tax
> increase. Needless to say, neither proposal is politically plausible.
>
> Annual budget debates are sterile -- long on rhetoric, short on action --
> because each side blames the other for a situation that neither chooses to
> change. To cut spending significantly, conservatives would have to go after
> popular welfare programs, including Social Security and Medicare. To raise
> taxes significantly, liberals would have to go after the upper middle class,
> a constituency they covet (two-thirds of all federal taxes come from the
> richest fifth). Deficits persist, because neither side risks its popularity,
> and, indeed, both sides pursue popularity with new spending programs and tax
> breaks.
>
> It might help if Americans called welfare programs -- current benefits for
> select populations, paid for by current taxes -- by their proper name,
> rather than by the soothing (and misleading) labels of "entitlements" and
> "social insurance." That way, we might ask ourselves who deserves welfare
> and why.
>
> We could consider all of federal spending and not just small bits of it. But
> most Americans don't want to admit that they are current or prospective
> welfare recipients. They prefer to think that they automatically deserve
> whatever they've been promised simply because the promises were made.
> Americans do not want to pose the basic questions, and their political
> leaders mirror that reluctance. This makes the welfare state immovable and
> the budget situation intractable.
>
> DD



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Evolution
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: OT: United States - a welfare state... - 02-15-2007, 01:30 AM

I wasn't going to comment on that ridiculous article, but...

First of all, money spent on welfare has gone up because 1) the
population has doubled in the last 30-40 years and 2) the number of poor
has risen dramatically under the Raygun/Bush/Bush administrations.

Chris wrote:
> Hate to say it. But I'm gonna give Diggler a nod for this one. The
> reality is that the way we will go exists somewhere in between. The
> article is correct in saying that Democrats like to increase funding
> to government programs. Republicans like to decrease funding for many
> government programs so they can increase funding for defense.


Which is welfare for the defense industry...

> Democrats want to raise taxes on the middle and upper-middle class to
> increase funding to government programs and pay down the national
> debt. Republicans are currently doing the converse.


This is just wrong. Democrats want to eliminate the tax cuts for the
wealthy, not raise taxes on the middle class. The tax cuts would only
be eliminated for the wealthy. The Republicans have only cut taxes for
the wealthy. The middle class got a piddling little cut, but most of
their cut went to the wealthy.

I don't think
> that anyone has proposed raising taxes for the wealthiest Americans by
> 40%. You can attempt to correct me if I am wrong. That's the problem
> with everyone...we're all a bunch of money-grubbing whores because
> money equals power, influence, and expanded opportunities in our
> world. Money is a valuable commodity. And certain individuals don't
> want to pay tax dollars to broken programs that help the poor when
> certain individuals view the poor as a social liability.
>
> A small-to-moderate increase in income tax for the wealthiest
> Americans is probably in order. As is the elimination of government
> waste in the form of useless programs. I don't consider Medicare/
> Medicaid and Social Security to be welfare programs. On that point, I
> disagree with the author. The only true WELFARE PROGRAM is the social
> WELFARE PROGRAM. And while we all hear about individuals who suck off
> this program like little leeches, there are also individuals who
> better themselves and raise their families out of poverty with the
> help of money from welfare. While welfare is sometimes a choice, it
> isn't ALWAYS a choice.


The average stay on welfare in California is 1 year. Only a very few
abuse this necessary safety net.

>
> Diggler, if you or I have a long protracted chronic illness that
> requires one of us to be in a hospital for a long period of time prior
> to your or my death, it benefits us greatly to use a program like
> Medicaid. Healthcare is expensive and those costs continue to rise.
> It is a wise decision to gift your assets to your progeny as you age
> to decrease your total assets. This will come into play when
> determining what kind of healthcare assistance and the quantity of
> healthcare assistance you will qualify for at the time you need it.
> You can't believe that your private health insurance will cover the
> total costs of your hospital stay. And why leave that debt to be paid
> by your estate when you have been paying into the Medicare/Medicaid
> system since you began working for a living? It would be your right
> to use that program. Why would you want it eliminated? Simply
> because there are people in this country who abuse the system? What
> about capping Medicare/Medicaid coverage based on how much an
> individual pays into the system over their working lifetime? And only
> making it available for use after a certain age, say 60 years old?
> That encourages personal responsibility to maintain one's health and
> also encourages individuals to purchase private health insurance to
> cover their healthcare needs 100% prior to age 60 and supplementally
> thereafter?


Hate to say it, but I'm quite sure Diggler wouldn't qualify for
Medicaid. You have to be poor, i.e. you can't own a home, car or IRAs
or any other assets. You would have to spend all your assets in order
to get Medicaid. Actually, I think they allow you a car worth no more
than a certain amount.

>
> The elimination of social programs is not the right path.


True. The elimination of corporate welfare is the right path, including
spending billions of dollars we don't have in order to enrich
Haliburton, the oil companies, etc.

Laurie

>

Laurie

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Dirk Diggler
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Posts: n/a
Re: OT: United States - a welfare state... - 02-15-2007, 08:03 PM


"DBCoop" <IAMNOT@HOME.COM> wrote in message
news:5g37t2de3s2f08q6afu64mfh6rj5kgi8f7@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:12:40 -0500, "Dirk Diggler" <dirk@dirk.org>
> wrote:
>
>>And I thought that Bush was cutting spending to the poor and all these
>>welfare people were starving. Seems like a bunch of hooey... We're
>>spending more on the poor and unfortunate that ever before. And poverty
>>continues to rise. But liberals like to throw money at problems that they
>>know will never be solved - keeps their voter base up...
>>
>>
>>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...021301091.html
>>

>
>
> The article and your post have very little in common. You talk about
> food stamps and welfare/poverty while this article talks about all
> entitlement programs including social security.
>
> Of course more money today goes to social security than during the
> cold war--there are more retired people today. Duh.


Food stamps and welfare are not entitlements?

I think so.

DD


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Dirk Diggler
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Re: OT: United States - a welfare state... - 02-15-2007, 08:03 PM


"Evolution" <myname@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:wNOdnc_IIpyxWE7YnZ2dnUVZ_oGlnZ2d@rcn.net...
>I wasn't going to comment on that ridiculous article, but...
>
> First of all, money spent on welfare has gone up because 1) the population
> has doubled in the last 30-40 years and 2) the number of poor has risen
> dramatically under the Raygun/Bush/Bush administrations.
>


I thought spending more money on welfare got people off the rolls. Guess
not...

> Chris wrote:
>> Hate to say it. But I'm gonna give Diggler a nod for this one. The
>> reality is that the way we will go exists somewhere in between. The
>> article is correct in saying that Democrats like to increase funding
>> to government programs. Republicans like to decrease funding for many
>> government programs so they can increase funding for defense.

>
> Which is welfare for the defense industry...
>


Blah blah.

>> Democrats want to raise taxes on the middle and upper-middle class to
>> increase funding to government programs and pay down the national
>> debt. Republicans are currently doing the converse.

>
> This is just wrong. Democrats want to eliminate the tax cuts for the
> wealthy, not raise taxes on the middle class. The tax cuts would only be
> eliminated for the wealthy. The Republicans have only cut taxes for the
> wealthy. The middle class got a piddling little cut, but most of their
> cut went to the wealthy.
>


How many Democrat Presidents have EVER cut taxes on the middle-class?

Hint: A number between -1 and 1...

> I don't think
>> that anyone has proposed raising taxes for the wealthiest Americans by
>> 40%. You can attempt to correct me if I am wrong. That's the problem
>> with everyone...we're all a bunch of money-grubbing whores because
>> money equals power, influence, and expanded opportunities in our
>> world. Money is a valuable commodity. And certain individuals don't
>> want to pay tax dollars to broken programs that help the poor when
>> certain individuals view the poor as a social liability.
>>
>> A small-to-moderate increase in income tax for the wealthiest
>> Americans is probably in order. As is the elimination of government
>> waste in the form of useless programs. I don't consider Medicare/
>> Medicaid and Social Security to be welfare programs. On that point, I
>> disagree with the author. The only true WELFARE PROGRAM is the social
>> WELFARE PROGRAM. And while we all hear about individuals who suck off
>> this program like little leeches, there are also individuals who
>> better themselves and raise their families out of poverty with the
>> help of money from welfare. While welfare is sometimes a choice, it
>> isn't ALWAYS a choice.

>
> The average stay on welfare in California is 1 year. Only a very few
> abuse this necessary safety net.
>


No no no no...

>>
>> Diggler, if you or I have a long protracted chronic illness that
>> requires one of us to be in a hospital for a long period of time prior
>> to your or my death, it benefits us greatly to use a program like
>> Medicaid. Healthcare is expensive and those costs continue to rise.
>> It is a wise decision to gift your assets to your progeny as you age
>> to decrease your total assets. This will come into play when
>> determining what kind of healthcare assistance and the quantity of
>> healthcare assistance you will qualify for at the time you need it.
>> You can't believe that your private health insurance will cover the
>> total costs of your hospital stay. And why leave that debt to be paid
>> by your estate when you have been paying into the Medicare/Medicaid
>> system since you began working for a living? It would be your right
>> to use that program. Why would you want it eliminated? Simply
>> because there are people in this country who abuse the system? What
>> about capping Medicare/Medicaid coverage based on how much an
>> individual pays into the system over their working lifetime? And only
>> making it available for use after a certain age, say 60 years old?
>> That encourages personal responsibility to maintain one's health and
>> also encourages individuals to purchase private health insurance to
>> cover their healthcare needs 100% prior to age 60 and supplementally
>> thereafter?

>
> Hate to say it, but I'm quite sure Diggler wouldn't qualify for Medicaid.
> You have to be poor, i.e. you can't own a home, car or IRAs or any other
> assets. You would have to spend all your assets in order to get Medicaid.
> Actually, I think they allow you a car worth no more than a certain
> amount.
>



If I didn't have health insurance or my benefits run out ($5,000,000 worth)
then yes, I would get Medicaid eventually...

>>
>> The elimination of social programs is not the right path.

>
> True. The elimination of corporate welfare is the right path, including
> spending billions of dollars we don't have in order to enrich Haliburton,
> the oil companies, etc.
>



Blah blah blah...

DD


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